Friend: okay chase you are pushing it!!! Lol I know the Pope scandal is a big deal but I think you are going over the top with the blatant Nazi references. it's like you're having fun with this
Me: well, the nazi reference wasn't mine...
Friend: I will not claim to know all there is to know about this, for sure, nor that the pope is not at fault.
Me: he was actually a memnber of the nazi party, and his personal preacher is trying to connect him with people who suffered under the nazi party
Friend: and did Ratzinger actually inflict any damage? wasn't he nazi youth? not okay, but not auschwitz
Friend: and I agree completely that comparing his suffering to the suffering of hte Jews is egregiously stupid
Me: I don't know if he killed or hurt anyone as a Nazi youth member. But he wore the uniform, and is, for better or worse, associated with the Nazi party. To try to claim a connection between media suffering and jews suffering in camps is ridiculous. I hope my tone doesn't sound like I'm having fun with it
Friend: oh sure
Me: I genuinely think the Pope is a bad person. I genuinely think he is a bad leader
Friend: okay well I disagree with you there, although I respect your right to feel that way remember that those were not the pope's words and I feel that while they were a poor choice of words on the priest's part, they seem to be blown out of proportion
Me: I genuinely think the Christ I got to know growing up would not want the Pope to be the leader of 8 billion Christians
Friend: what about the pope bothers you? I don't think he chose to be a member of the nazi youth. as for all of this scandal thing, I don't know enough about it to pass judgment
Me: no, it's not his nazi past that bothers me
Friend: but have you read any of his encyclicals? have you read his writings or anything good about him or just the bad stuff people are reporting?
Me: 1) he's out of touch with Catholics. Especially in regards to the sex abuse, he either deliberately or accidentally kept his head buried in the sand
Me: 2) he is staunchly homophobic. This doesn't effect me too much, except that his dogma empowers a lot of other people to keep people like me from coming out, from being honest, or from being a part of a church they want to be in
Friend: okay, that's the teachings of the church as a whole, not just the pope, so I think that issue is with Catholicism overall. not that it's okay, and yes he's a part of it, but any other pope would be the same at this point
Me: 3) He has repeatedly spoken against the use of condoms to prevent HIV/AIDS in Africa, saying that abstinence is the christian way to do it. Again, dogma is hurting real people, and hurting them in huge numbers
Friend: ah, yeah that's a sticky issue. again, not just him, but I know what you mean, he's the leader. Yeah I mean I’m not Catholic! and some of those are parts of the reasons why. I just am challening you, not because I"m mad, but because I want to have that discussion
Me: but this one is him specifically, because he has personally spoken publicly on the issue, and refused funding for safe sex campaigns in Africa that have been proven to work by non-christian organizations
Friend: ah I see
Me: i'm not mad either, and could never be mad at you! 
Friend: :}
Me: but there are several tangible reasons why I don't like the Pope. it's not just a knee jerk reaction to the Catholic faith which he happens to lead. His own speeches and opinions are actually harmful to people
Friend: yeah I see. I know, it's hard for me because on the one hand I understand theologically why he feels certain ways. even if I don't agree, so I am not angry at him in the same way and I sort of understand the morally sticky situaton he is in, but I also agree with you taht there is bad crap coming out of it. yeah, I just think it's easy (not that you're doing this) but it's easy for a lot of people to just look at the press and turn him into a villain without taking a closer look at what he has done and that I get frustrated by
Me: I admit that I don't look at the good things he has done. a media problem anywhere, bad news is better news
Friend: right, and that's the case all the time, not just with this. here is an interesting article that my husband found and I want you to look at the stuff that's come directly from the pope
http://www.vatican.va/resources/resources_card-levada2010_en.html
you may not agree but it's an interesting poitn of view to consider. and one that I wasn't familiar with.
Friend: anywya thanks for discussing with me! :}
Me: reading the article now
Me: the writer seems to be saying, in the first half, that the victims should have gone to civil authorities. The fact is, they didn't. They went to the church and the church did nothing. One can't blame the victims for not going to civil authorities after religious authorities shunned them
I have trouble with religious leaders (clearly). On the one hand, how can the Pope be a bad guy? He's connected to Christ every day right?
Friend: it says the police and prosecurors ignored reports from victims, which implies that they DID go to civil authorieis
Me: my bad, it says that the church people should have gone to civil authorities
Me: so, my point would change - either way, the church did nothing. how can you turn your back to a crying child?
Me: I mean, the Pope should be a good guy right? He's devoted his life to teaching Christ's love (that was a big part of the speech he gave when he was first elected to the Papacy...connecting with Christ)
Friend: well, okay, the point of this article is to say that while everyone is blaming the pope, a lot of the blame should be placed on the diocesan authorities. I think he is not necessarily trying to address the idea of Benedict's guilt but is emphasizing the logical fallacies in the writer's piece (which, granted, may not necessarily relate to what you and I were discussing)
Me: so, I get frustrated when there is a lot of hatred, or passive ignoring of problems like HIV/AIDS, women's roles in the church, and child molesting priests
Friend: right but, the pope is an easy scapegoat
Me: he's in charge
Friend: and as the leader of the Catholic church, he can be connected to those things for sure
Me: he was literally in charge of addressing the child rape problems
before he was pope
Friend: I still feel like there is a lot of bureacracy there, it's not like things came directly to him. And again, I am not trying to argue his innocence, I am just saying that there are things that are issues with the church as a whole, or with diocesan problems that may not have been well dealt with that are getting translated into a criminialization of the pope
Me: I don't know how much he knew. But, if he didn't know what was going on, he wasn't effective in his position
Friend: okay, and that's a legitimate argument
Me: it wouldn't surprise me if we all find out that the people under him hid things from him to "protect" him
Friend: yes, me neither, which would be a problem, but not his fault
Me: unless he knew people were hiding it and accepted it
Friend: I just basically take issue with a lot of reporters that seem out to demonize him
the Catholic church gets hated on a lot and I understand the reasoning behind some of it
Me: frankly, they are the source of a LOT of hate.
Friend: a lot of churches are sources of a lot of hate, fundamentalist churches are oftn just as bad. not that that makes it okay!! But…
Me: yes, not just Catholics
Friend: and I truly believe that the pope, and the good catholics out there, are doing their best to work towards a loving and Christlike world and some of their tactics are not Christlike
Me: to your point, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I shouldn't be hating on the church so much....why spread more hatred?
Friend: which is not okay, but perhaps true! although Id o think it is legitimate to challenge things that are hurtful or bad, but I do think that we tend to spend a lot of time looking at the things that divide us and don't necessarily make the effort to find the good, or the commonalities
it isi a lot harder especially when the bad stuff can be so hurtful
Me: I definitely fall into that category. of course, it's also easy for people in the US to villainize the Pope because we don't have a personal connection with him
Friend: I think we all do. but anyway. here's hoping the Vatican, and we, can move forward in a good and loving direction towards justice and a future free of this kind of awfulness
Me: maybe the media has ignored him saying this, but what a statement it would be if he got up and said, "Children of Christ, I am sorry for your pain that any Church official has caused you. Abuse is unacceptable and I want to promise you that we are forcefully ridding our Church family of this problem." again, I probably don't hear the good stuff like that he says trying to actually read some of his recent letters/speeches now
Friend: yeah, I know he made a speech about it when he came to the US
Me: he's the first pope to ever meet with sex abuse victims, that's a huge wall to break down
Friend: I wish I could find the text of his speech, I just found this, which is Catholic News Service: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802072.htm
not exactly unbiased, but a start
Me: here's that speech: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080416_bishops-usa_en.html
Friend: good find
Friend: okay, so it's about two paragraphs of the whole thing. they're good of course, the question is, is it enough? but it's something
Me: so, in this speech, as well as in his recent letter to the Irish Bishops, he constantly says (paraphrase) "YOU need to have better relationships with your diocese...etc."
Friend: yeah, he's not talking about it as his job, but his job to shepherd them in doing it right
Me: it was especially noticeable in his letter to the Irish: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html
Friend: I don't think at this point that he's trying to pass it off
Me: he's trying to get them to do the right thing I think
Friend: yes
Me: but it seems like he's trying to do it without taking responsibility for leading them into doing it it seems he's saying "you should do this" instead of "I am going to make sure this doesn't happen anymore"
Friend: yeah, again, I'm not sure whether that is passing it off, or legitimately acknowledging that it's their job. i think some of that has to do with hierarchy and bureacracy
Me: maybe i'm too in love with Obama, who has made every problem a personal goal of his to change, lol
Friend: hahah I know. but I see whta you mean, too. we want to hear him make it more of a personal goal for him, himself. very interesting
I actually have to go now
